A Call for an Immigration Summit - Immigration Issues Worldwide

Time for reflection

Exploring similarities between cultures, in dealing with targeted immigrant groups.

Magyar Hirlap, a Hungarian daily news entity (see ://www.magyarhirlap.hu/) supports the stern immigration measures against particular immigrants, Romanian gypsies, that the Italian government takes in Italy, see ://www.eurotopics.net/en/search/results/archiv_article/ARTICLE28414-Justified-severity. See FN 3 for the text.

We know from other articles at the Eurotopics site that Italian people (enough to be mentioned), hearing the government's support, follow up with their own reprisals against gypsies. Follow the leader, as anywhere.

Since we cannot translate to English ourselves from Magyar Hirlap, we rely on Eurotopics' translation, and do an experiment to see if American diatribes against our targets (do a search for Lou Dobbs, Rush Limbaugh and immigration issues) sounds any different from European diatribes against their targets, and where we go from here.

Map-out. We are going to use the words of the Eurotopics representation of Hungary's position as to Gypsies, and substitute American ones, as to undocumented Hispanic immigrants in America (the pejorative is "illegal aliens" or "criminal illegal aliens"). FN 4

Here comes the substituted version, a fake broadcast from America - fake news, but accurate in substance. Here goes:

....................................... Music, then fade out.

News commentator: 'The conservative Fox News, see Bill O'Reilly at ://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156319,00.html, expresses sympathy with Italy's tough immigration policy:

Mr. O'Reilly: "What are we talking about here? We are talking about the fact that America has been inundated with Mexican vagrants. They have neither papers nor money. What is worse is their failure to follow even the most rudimentary standards of conduct. They live in urban and rural clusters. They are shabby and create piles of refuse and dirt. They take jobs from Americans and get free social services at our expense, and so they also bring in more of their kind. And of course, they also commit crimes - crimes of a rapidly escalating gravity.

News commentator: 'Media far-right conservative opinionator Lou Dobbs reached the end of his tether and added to the stereotype that undocumented immigrants increase crime, by juxtaposing the term "undocumented immigrants" or "illegal aliens" with "criminal". [see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/03/05/immigration_and_crime/.

News commentator continues: 'Berlusconi [Italy] and his conservative government have now decided to put an end to this ridiculous and disgraceful state of affairs. In addition to punishment for illegal immigrants, in future undocumented hispanic immigrants are also to be deported.

'Any normal person would support these measures.

'The problem is that our liberal world is full of crazy people. So now we are witnessing how liberal defenders of rights and commentators unleash an indignant storm of protest against the Italian government. And of course, Berlusconi is the bad guy and the 'populist'."

..........................................Music, then fade out again.

Issues: When does a program regarding reasonable immigration issues become a virtual pogrom FN 1. Not killing, but killing the spirit, the humanity of a group, reaction by mass deportion to where.

Are we looking at a global crisis in human population movements, an issue confronting nations anywhere.

1. Role of Memes. Has a "meme" spread, FN 2, that time's up for immigration from underdeveloped countries and for groups long targeted, to the developed countries. These targeted groups used to be - here - the Irish, others who came in huge numbers in the 19th Century. Now assimilated, as physically similar to mainstream, did ok economically. The Irish. Doing not so well: Gypsies, Roma. Doing well here: Jews. Doing middling: Hispanics.

As to all, another meme at one time: that "bad" immigrant behavior when it occurs, if it occurs, reflects the immigrant's inferiority, the immigrant's culture's unworthiness, not his background experiences, lessons learned, etc.

2. Theory: Is there any chance that universal basic sustenance - food, clothing, shelter, jobs, dignity-fostering policies, could change the meme.

We may find it hard to even give it a chance.

We predict that the Hungarians and Italians, with a longer history of animosity to gypsies, will continue to find it more difficult to change the national "meme" about gypsies. Some of us here are trying to educate ourselves on the depth of the cultural divide. See Gypsies, Roma, Romani.

We have hopes, however, that the US, with its far shorter history of animosity to undocumented hispanics, will find it somewhat less difficult to accept forms of guest worker programs instead of Immediate Invasion of Neighborhoods and Deportation. But that can happen only if memes are kept in check.

Here, issues as to Gypsies and Hispanic immigrants are less entrenched, not a matter of generations, of tradition, of cultural acceptance for centuries, as had been attitudes and memes about blacks. It may be do-able as to gypsies and immigrants, if reasoned voices prevail, and not the inflammatories. See this reasonably hopeful article from the Center for Immigration Studies, at ://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html

That does not address the need for assistance to those groups in education, job skills, sustenance. No other country seems to have answers, either.

Everyday People

Global Summit. Hungary: Idea. We are all in same global blue-marble boat. All countries have ordinary people who reasonably will follow a sensible policy - and can be led either way.

Study carefully which way to go.

If everybody deports, as you suggest and our people also (some loud ones) are pushing for, where do the people go that will not continue to cause instability on both sides and worse. Take charge in a constructive way. Everybody loves Budapest. Host a global summit on immigration issues, because I can't think of any country that is not dealing with violence in those areas, or that soon will, when immigration across their borders also increase, regardless of the nationality or culture. All beginning immigrants who are unassimilated and distinguishable, are hit upon, sometimes to the death. Is that right? And, is that right?

Please wait until after our national elections. Thank you.

.......................................
FN 1 Pogrom. "An organized massacre of helpless people," see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pogrom. Read about one at ://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce.html

FN 2 Memes. See Joy of Equivocating, Memes.

FN 3 Here is the original excerpt, needed here as fair use for purposes of comparing the version above, and from ://www.eurotopics.net/en/search/results/archiv_article/ARTICLE28414-Justified-severity

QUOTE ARTICLE - The conservative daily Magyar Hírlap expresses sympathy with Italy's tough immigration policy: "What are we talking about here? We are talking about the fact that Italy has been inundated with Romanian gypsies. They have neither papers nor money. What is worse is their failure to follow even the most rudimentary standards of conduct. They live in camp settlements on city outskirts. They relieve themselves on the street and create piles of refuse and dirt. They beg and pester Italians. And of course, they also commit crimes - crimes of a rapidly escalating gravity. The Italians reached the end of their tether when a Romanian gypsy killed the wife of an Italian officer. ... Berlusconi and his conservative government have now decided to put an end to this ridiculous and disgraceful state of affairs. In addition to punishment for illegal immigrants, in future Romanian gypsies are also to be deported. Any normal person would support these measures. The problem is that our liberal world is full of crazy people. So now we are witnessing how liberal defenders of rights and commentators unleash an indignant storm of protest against the Italian government. And of course, Berlusconi is the bad guy and the 'populist'." UNQUOTE ARTICLE

FN 4
Why not focus on American gypsies? The group subject here is not gypsy for purposes of this discussion, see ://www.americangypsy.com/the_film/full_description.html,because they try to stay under the radar, and have not been in the news recently as a focus criminal element overall. But we are confident that when the cultures clash there as well, the language and response is the same.

Why not Native Americans? Their situation also is not a current news focus. And we have a guilt relationship here, and don't like to look at what we did. They are discriminated against as are immigrants (note some have found a mega-niche in gambling resorts on their reservations). They were here first and cruelly dealt with by us. We created reasons to slaughter them, by touting our "divine right" by superiority and mission, good heavens, to take land and property. We made our own justification. We let ourselves be sold, and now don't know what to do. Like Iraq? And in our making up our own justification, the Native American situation is like the Gypsies and Jews and Hispanic immigrants - not anything inherent in them, but we impose, they react over time, traits evolve both sides, and the meme runs on. We can't cover all groups in one post. Come back for that one.

Why not Asian undocumented immigrants? Not the current news focus, we see. This group enters with somewhat more of a potential support system of entrepreneurs and others, bringing-in, finding housing, initial job, not attracting attention except by numbers, but problems there are many and increasing, see ://www.altrue.net/altruesite/files/alc/pdf/reporter%20final%20PDF.pdf.

Gypsies, Roma in Hungary, as Elsewhere

New York Times, February 6, 2008. Dateline Budapest. An art show, by Roma (Romani, Gypsies) at the National Gallery. Roma are the country's largest minority, and the article cites them as the most despised. The exhibit came and went, contemporary art, but the gangs organized against Roma as threats to Hungarian culture, continue.

Nazi throwbacks.

What mindset, global, in US as well as elsewhere. What to counter.

Hungary in WWII; History of Expansions, Territory Gained, Lost

Travel to Eastern Europe highlights the fluidity of boundaries and conquests that is also seen in the architecture. The histories of rulers show much back and forth as nationalities emerged, identified and coalesced. See Romania Road Ways, and Romania Road Ways, Vlad Tepes sites. There find a history of rulers and interactions and influence by Hungary throughout the Balkans and Eastern Eurpe that are just barely echoed now in modern Hungary, focused as is now for the tourist at Budapest. In particular, meet Janos Hunyadi: The ruler who raised Vlad the Impaler, and later killed Vlad's father, and his castle in Romania at Hunedoara. See Romania Road Ways, Hunedoara.

Pride in history and heritage. Houses. See the blends. Hungarian houses are wooden and distinctive in Croatia, even near the capital of Croatia, Zagreb: this one at Sisenik. Many Croatian homes are stone, stucco. The wooden ones do stand out. I also recall that the Venetians and others used Croatia as a timber source for their ships and buildings at home. So much is deforested. Balance that concept with the fact that other countries that could use the abundance of wood to build homes, did so with fine decorations, borrowing from each other, and the fluidity idea grows. See Poland Road Ways, Traditional Zakopane.

Location, location, location. Hungary served as a buffer against the Ottoman Empire's expansion, at a time when the rest of Christendom was not paying attention, too involved with other intrigues - see http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/thou/thou04.htm. See also the overview of Muslim expansion in a quick summary at Europe Road Ways, Themes, Muslim Expansion. This massive defense effort further developed superior military skills - Hungarians were already legendary horsemen - but also a depletion of other resources.

Losses remembered, the drive to recoup. Read about Hungary as an Axis force in WWII at ://www.feldgrau.com/a-hungary.html. So much war is about regaining lost turf. If that is so, is stability ever possible so long as there is memory.

Eyelid windows - moving West

Rural Hungary is like any other rural area - some poorer, some more well-t0-do. This neighborhood was in a village on the way, cross-country, from Budapest back to Slovakia.

See the eyelid windows below: no sharp eaves to leak.


Look at the blue roof there. Watching. Eyelid windows are seen often in both traditional and modern houses - and in Romania (especially Sibiu, where roof eyes follow you everywhere) and many other countries.

They are coming here. See also in the Hartford Courant 1/31/07 at the Money and Business section, D-1, by Robin Stansbury and photo in newspaper by Stephen Dunn: upscale homes with architectural features including these eyelid windows, as a way of opening up attic and eaves to living space with light. Nothing new.

Hungarian history, Magyar and Khazar: Site for History of Central Europe

Sometimes we find a site that adds a handy chronology. Go to The History of Central Europe, at //mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/misc/europe.htm#Mong. Helps explain "Turan" and overview.

Doing a "find" for Khazar in the Magyar section:

Khazars and Mongols overcome the Huns.

1. Magyars were vassals of the Khazars
2. Khazar era - 602-1016.
3. Area - Crimea to Caspian Sea, north to Volga
4. 7th Century - Khazar chief converts to Judaism, population follows
5. By 889, Magyars settle south of Kiev
6. Khazars expel those who replaced the Vlachs in Romania

Then what?